"When I read your original post (without the later updates) I must conclude that you aren't happy that the Hussein brothers are dead and that your only reaction is that this must be a plot by the administration. Funny, that is exactly the reaction Steven had. Only your later updates make it clear that you are glad those monsters are dead. (Good for you.) I challenge anyone to read your original post and come to a different conclusion."My reply:
The reason you came to that conclusion, reading my original post, was because of the pre-spin put on it by Den Beste.
Anyone reading my post, who did not have a pre-disposition to attack me, or be cynical in whatever I write, would NOT havecome to the same conclusion.
They would have, correctly, concluded that I was CYNICAL about the TIMING of the operation.
I invite ANYONE to parse my words carefully, and in detail to come up with ANYTHING that can be construed as unhappiness that the Hussein twins were killed.
What Steven [and others subsequently] did was imply that by focusing my cynicism on the timing, I was iunsufficiently patriotic or human in my reaction to the deaths of those two scumbags.
Hence my "McCarthyite" charge.
It doesn't mattere if Steven is Spocklike in his McCarthyism, or bombastic. It's not a matter of STYLE, but of substance.
Hesoid,More Hesoid comment goodness here.
Just as you said, a closer reading of your original post shows neither happiness nor sadness about the Hussein brothers demise. Only the cynicism shines through. Given that level of cynicism about an administration which both Den Beste and I think is doing a good job might reasonably rate a sarcastic comment, hmmm? I notice no lack of sarcasm on this site, either from the right or the left, about each other's cynical appraisals.
I do not know about others, but the only thing Den Beste did was sarcastically lump you in with 'the loyal opposition', and he did so by quoting your own words. Not proof of everything you were thinking, but at least proof of something you were thinking. This is not McCartyism.
Den Beste did not say you had passed secrets to the Iraqis. Den Beste did not say you were a card-carrying member or loyal to the Baathist party. Read McCarthy's speech. McCarthy said these things, named names and gave no proof. If making sarcastic comments is McCarthyism, Den Beste is nothing compared to what I've read here from both the right and the left.
Hesoid, you have not made the case that Den Beste is a McCartyite. He has neither the style nor the substance.
Yours,
Wince
Max B. Sawicky also thinks Den Beste is channeling Tailgunner Joe. I still don't buy it, although my idea that Hesoid's original post implied unhappiness was clearly wrong as several people kindly (well, mostly kindly) pointed out. My words from his comment thread (in reply to several posts)follow. You will detect a certain amount (alright, a large amount) of cut and paste:
Just as Hesoid (in his comments), kevin, and Lordwhorfin said, a closer reading of his original post shows neither happiness nor sadness about the Hussein brothers demise. Only the cynicism shines through. I apologise for assuming that if Hesoid's written reaction to the demise of Hussein brothers was a cynical stab towards the Bush administration that he was unhappy that they died. It is clearly possible both to fervently hope that America will do well and to think that the current administration is not helping. I disagree with them on many matters myself. Do not get me started on Homeland Security, for instance.Here's to the glory of civil discourse, and of ranting and raving too.
I will say that given that level of cynicism about an administration which both Den Beste and I think is doing a good job might reasonably rate a sarcastic comment, hmmm? I notice no lack of sarcasm either from the right or the left, about each other's cynical appraisals.
I do not know about others, but the only thing Den Beste did was sarcastically lump Hesoid in with 'the loyal opposition', and he did so by quoting Hesoid's own words. Not proof of everything he was thinking, but at least proof of something he was thinking. This is not McCarthyism.
Den Beste did not say Hesoid had passed secrets to the Iraqis. Den Beste did not say he was a card-carrying member or loyal to the Baathist party. Read McCarthy's speech. McCarthy said these things, named names and gave no proof. If making sarcastic comments is McCarthyism, Den Beste is nothing compared to what I've read from both the right and the left.
Max, you have not made the case that Den Beste is a McCarthyite. I don't buy the miasma of McCarthyism charge. All human beings believe the 'other' is bad and the 'us' is good. If you don't, change sides. As for the charge that I am a McCarthyite because I maintained that there were many Communists with high government rank, I am afraid that I failed to mention that my source was recently declassified Soviet documents. This information has been in the news lately. I know I should provide links, but I am too darn tired. Maybe tomorrow. Max, I also long for more civil discourse, but I would stop short of chilling the speech you label McCarthyite. I would also stop short of chilling the uncivil (to me) descriptions of the right wing I read so often. If we require everyone to avoid sarcasm, labeling, accusations, and all other uncivil forms of discourse, we won't have any discourse. I try to be civil in my discourse. What distressed me so much about pointing the McCarthy label at Den Beste it that he appears to be trying to be civil as well. I have observed him bending over backwards to be respectful to those who disagree with him. The contrast to Hesoid himself could hardly be greater.
As regards engineering, everything said was correct. There are engineers who provide specious reasoning to back up ridicuous ideas. Engineers do have training which can (if they use it) assist them in making better arguments with better facts. I am flattered that Lordwhorfin thinks I sound like an engineer, even if it wasn't a compliment. I still maintain that engineers are motivated to be more rigorous at work, and I try to bring such rigor to my politics. If I fail more often than at work, it is because rigor is easier to apply to engineering tasks than politics, and because it is harder to maintain my own emotional detachment and police my own ulterior motives.
Yours,
Wince
